Part 2: https://universalistheretic.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-pre-existence-of-christ-prologue-of.html
Predestination in Jewish thought
Two of the most important prooftexts for the supposed pre-incarnate existence of Christ are John 8:58 and John 17:5. It would not be wrong to say that the case for pre-existence rests largely on these two verses, along with the prologue of John 1 (which was dealt with in my last post). However, before discussing the interpretation of these verses, some background information about the Jewish conception of predestination is necessary.
In ancient Jewish thought, things that have been predestined by God - especially things integral to His plan, like Israel and the Messiah - were considered to have figuratively existed with God in heaven since before the beginning of creation. Consider the following excerpt from the Babylonian Talmud, written around the time of Jesus or just afterward:
Seven phenomena were created before the world was created, and they are: Torah, and repentance, and the Garden of Eden, and Gehenna, and the Throne of Glory, and the Temple, and the name of Messiah... The name of Messiah already existed before the creation of the sun and the rest of the world. (Pesachim 54a:8, 11)
We see from this passage that, in the mind of the ancient Jews, the most important aspects of God’s plan, like the Torah, the Garden of Eden, and the name of the Messiah, actually existed prior to the creation of the world. Although they did not literally exist prior to their creation (which would be logically impossible), they did exist in the plan of God, and by this figure of speech (prolepsis) could actually be considered as existing alongside God in heaven prior to creation.
This exact same idea appears again in the Bereishit Rabbah, a rabbinic commentary on Genesis written circa AD 400:
In the way of the world, a king of flesh and blood who builds a castle does not do so from his own knowledge, but rather from the knowledge of an architect, and the architect does not build it from his own knowledge, but rather he has scrolls and books in order to know how to make rooms and doorways. So too Hashem [God] gazed into the Torah and created the world. (Bereishit Rabbah 1:1)
Six things preceded the creation of the world; some of them were created and some of them were decided to be created. The Torah and the Throne of Glory were created... The patriarchs, Israel, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah were decided to be created. (Bereishit Rabbah 1:4)
According to this commentary, six things existed prior to the creation of the world, and yet four of them (the patriarchs, Israel, the Temple, and the name of Messiah) were only decided to be created at that point. In this way, God, like an architect, creates according to the plans that He made before the creation of the world. This again shows the Jewish figure of speech by which those things that are predestined by God can be said to exist with God in heaven, even prior to the foundation of the world.
Furthermore, even people, like the patriarchs and Messiah, were said in ancient Jewish literature to have pre-existed with God in heaven (although the Jews did not literally believe that anyone consciously pre-existed their birth):
“Abraham and Isaac were created before any work [of God]. But I, Jacob... am the firstborn of every living thing to whom God gives life... I had descended to earth and I had tabernacled among men and I had been called by the name of Jacob.” (Prayer of Joseph 1:2-4)
The Jews who wrote this pseudepigraphical Prayer of Joseph (written around the time of Christ) did not believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob literally existed before the creation of the world, or that Jacob physically descended from heaven and “tabernacled” among men. How could they, since the Bible so clearly states that they were born like any other human?
And yet, they had no difficulty writing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob existed with God before anything was created, nor that Jacob descended from heaven and tabernacled among men, which is exactly what is written of Jesus in the gospel of John (1:14; 3:13; etc.) This is another example of prolepsis, the figure of speech that was often used in ancient Jewish literature to describe things that were pre-eminent in God’s predestined plan. But if these things were said about the patriarchs, who we correctly understand not to have existed consciously prior to their births, why should we take such figures of speech literally when applied to Jesus?
This is not limited to a single work of Jewish literature, either; this figure of speech is applied to both people and objects, in literature both before and after the time of Christ. See the following examples:
And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Ancient of Days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of Spirits... And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for evermore. (1 Enoch 48:2-3, 6; 2nd c. BC)
“number her [Asenath] with Your people whom You chose before all things were made” (Joseph and Asenath 8:9; 2nd c. BC)
Accordingly He [God] designed and devised me [Moses], and He prepared me before the foundation of the world, that I should be the mediator of His covenant. (Assumption of Moses 1:13-14; 1st c. BC)
And Yahweh said to me: “This city [Jerusalem] will be delivered up for a time, and the people will be chastened for a time, and the world will not be forgotten... it... was already prepared from the moment that I decided to create Paradise. And I showed it to Adam before he sinned... After these things I showed it to My servant Abraham... And again I showed it also to Moses... Behold, now it is preserved with Me - as also Paradise.” (2 Baruch 4:1-5; 2nd c. AD)
Throughout this intertestamental and rabbinic Jewish literature, we see the same motif of proleptic or “ideal” pre-existence pop up over and over again. The patriarchs, the Messiah, the people of Israel, Moses, and the city of Jerusalem are all considered to have existed with God, in His foreknowledge, before even the foundation of the world. Of course, they did not believe that these people and places actually existed prior to their creation; but through this figure of speech, they could be said to have existed together with God long before they were actually formed.
Some critics of this idea argue that, because these examples are all from extra-biblical literature, they cannot be applied to the gospel of John. They say that the Jews of that time period had many odd, unbiblical ideas that are not applicable to the Bible itself. However, this ignores the fact that the exact same thing occurs all throughout the Bible. Across both the Old and New Testaments, people, objects, and events are said to have existed in God’s foreknowledge long before they were actually made and came to pass. Consider the following passages:
“Have you not heard? Long ago I did it; from ancient times I formed it. Now I have brought it about, that you would turn fortified cities into ruined heaps.” (2 Kings 19:25)
In this passage, God is speaking about the defeat of the Assyrians by the Judean king, Hezekiah. And yet, He actually says that “long ago I did it, from ancient times I formed it“. In some sense, because His plan was so certain to come to pass, it could be said that God has already done it in eternity past, even though it was only coming about at that time. This is extremely similar to what we saw in Jewish literature, that God’s predestined plans can in some way be considered to have already come to pass, even if they have not yet been enacted.
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.” (Rev. 4:11 NASB)
The significance of this passage is easy to miss. The twenty-four elders before the throne praise God, for “because of [His] will [all things] existed, and were created”. That is, all things existed in His will before they were created.
“Then the King will say to the [ones] on his right hand, ‘Come, those blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from [the] foundation of [the] world.’” (Matt. 25:34)
The kingdom of God, though it will not be manifested until the second coming of Christ, has in some sense been prepared since the foundation of the world. This is extremely similar to how Jerusalem was described in 2 Baruch (see above), as something that was prepared already before creation (and shown to a select few, like Adam, Abraham, and Moses) but only built up as the capital of Israel in the time of David.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jer. 1:5 YLT)
Jeremiah existed in some sense prior to His conception and birth, and was known by God at that time. This is highly similar to the pre-existence of persons seen in the Prayer of Joseph and Joseph and Asenath, in which the patriarchs and the people of Israel were said to have been created already in the foreknowledge of God prior to the foundation of the world.
He [God] chose us in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, in love. (Eph. 1:4 NASB)
[God] did save us, and did call with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages (2 Tim. 1:9 YLT)
God chose us and bestowed His grace upon us before the foundation of the world, before the times of the ages, even though we (obviously) did not physically exist at that time.
These passages show that all of the elements of prolepsis found in ancient Jewish literature are also found in the Bible itself. People, objects, and events are considered to exist in the foreknowledge of God, and figuratively said to exist alongside God in heaven, even before they are created. Furthermore, just as in Jewish literature, this same idea is applied to the Messiah, Jesus, in the New Testament.
[Messiah was] foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you (1 Pet. 1:20 YLT)
the Lamb [was] slain before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8 YLT)
1 Peter 1:20 could not be any clearer; the Messiah, Jesus, was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but only manifested in these last times. Since things that are foreknown (lit. “pre-known”) cannot exist at the time that they are foreknown (otherwise they wouldn’t be foreknown), this is a major point in favor of Socinianism. Jesus cannot have literally existed before He was manifested in these last times, since He was foreknown at that time, which makes it impossible that He could have consciously pre-existed His own conception and birth.
If we are to properly exegete the supposed prooftexts for “pre-existence” in the gospel of John, we need to keep this idea of the figure of speech of prolepsis in mind. People whom we know did not pre-exist their births (like the patriarchs and Moses) are said through this figure of speech to have existed since before the foundation of the world and to have descended from heaven, which is exactly what is said of Jesus in the gospel of John. It is highly inconsistent to interpret these figures of speech literally in the case of Jesus, and figuratively when used to describe other people.
“Before Abraham was, I am”
John 8:58 is, along with John 1:1 and 17:5, one of the most commonly used prooftexts for both the deity and pre-existence of Christ.
“Abraham, your father, was glad that he might see my day; and he saw, and did rejoice.” The Jews, therefore, said unto him, “Thou art not yet fifty years old, and Abraham hast thou seen?” Jesus said to them, “Verily, verily, I say to you, before Abraham was — I am.” They took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:56-59)
First of all, it is important to recognize that the typical translation of this passage, “before Abraham was I am”, is actually incorrect and misleading. The combination of the present tense verb (“am”) with a past tense time indicator (“before Abraham was”) indicates that this verb should be translated as a progressive present or present of past action. This same type of construct appears elsewhere in the New Testament:
“Lo, so many years [past time indicator] I do serve thee [present tense verb]” (Lk. 15:29)
“So long a time [past time indicator] I am with you [present tense verb]” (Jn. 14:9)
“from the beginning [past time indicator] ye are with me [present tense verb]” (Jn. 15:27)
from the beginning [past time indicator] the devil doth sin [present tense verb] (1 Jn. 3:8)
In each of these cases, a past time indicator is combined with a present tense verb, and the vast majority of Bible versions translate them accordingly in the perfect tense (see the links above for a survey of translations of each verse).
John 8:58 is, grammatically, exactly the same as each of these verses. Therefore, this should also be translated in the perfect tense, as a progressive present: “before Abraham was, I have been”. But if this is the case, then why have the majority of versions translated this verse in the present tense? Since grammatical considerations do not show this passage to be any different than the others quoted above, the differing translation of this specific passage must be theologically motivated, likely arising from a misguided attempt to strengthen the tenuous connection with Exodus 3:14 [1].
Furthermore, throughout his gospel account, John establishes εγω ειμι not as a claim to divinity, but as a Messianic claim. When the Samaritan woman remarks that she has heard that the Messiah is coming, Jesus responds, “εγω ειμι”, meaning “I am [the Messiah]” (Jn. 4:25-26). Jesus tells the Jews that, unless they believe that “εγω ειμι”, they will die in their sins (Jn. 8:24); since we are told elsewhere that the message by which they are saved is that “Jesus is the Messiah” (Jn. 20:31), this again is not a claim to deity, but the implied statement is “I am [the Messiah]”. Jesus again states, “εγω ειμι”, where the implied predicate is clearly “Son of Man”, also a Messianic title (Jn. 8:28 cf. Mk. 14:62). In response to a Messianic prophecy, Jesus claims, “εγω ειμι”, meaning “I am [the One prophesied]” (Jn. 13:18-19).
Therefore, when Jesus states that “before Abraham was, εγω ειμι“, we should understand Him as meaning that “I have been [the Messiah] before Abraham was born”. This also explains why the Jews immediately got up to stone Him; claiming to be the Messiah without backing up one’s claim in front of a tribunal was considered to be a capital offense under ancient Jewish law [2]. But what, exactly, did Jesus mean by “I have been [the Messiah] before Abraham was born”? Was it a blatant claim to pre-existence, as trinitarians and Arians believe, or something more subtle?
First of all, we need to dispense with the idea that Jesus was saying in v. 56 that Abraham had literally seen Him. According to Hebrews 11:39, neither Abraham nor any of the other Old Testament patriarchs and heroes actually saw the Christ:
And all these [incl. Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised [the Messiah]. (NASB)
However, although Abraham did not see Jesus in actuality, he did see Him as a prophetic promise from God (Gen. 22:18 cf. Rom. 4:18; Gal. 3:16). This is extremely similar to the way that 2 Baruch (quoted above) describes the way that the patriarchs saw the city of Jerusalem before it was actually built:
And Yahweh said to me: “This city [Jerusalem] will be delivered up for a time, and the people will be chastened for a time, and the world will not be forgotten... it... was already prepared from the moment that I decided to create Paradise. And I showed it to Adam before he sinned... After these things I showed it to My servant Abraham... And again I showed it also to Moses... Behold, now it is preserved with Me - as also Paradise.” (2 Baruch 4:1-5)
Abraham saw his promised descendant, the Christ, in the same way that 2 Baruch states that Abraham was shown the promised city of Jerusalem; not as an actual reality, but as a prophetic promise. Thus, when Jesus said that “Abraham, your father... saw [My day] and did rejoice”, He was speaking figuratively, not saying that Abraham literally saw Him (which, again, would contradict Heb. 11:39).
To properly understand the rest of this passage, it is necessary to recognize the “misunderstanding motif” that appears all throughout the gospel of John. This motif consists of three steps:
1. Jesus says something literally, which He means figuratively.
2. The Jews purposely misinterpret His words in the most literal way possible, to ridicule Him.
3. Jesus (or John) provides the correct, figurative interpretation of His words.
Here are some examples of this motif in the gospel of John:
1. “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
2. “This temple was built in forty-six years, and in three days you will raise it up?”
3. He was speaking of the temple of His body. (2:19-21)
1. “If anyone may not be born again, he is not able to see the kingdom of God.”
2. “How is a man able to be born, being old? Can he enter into his mother’s womb a second time?”
3. “One must be born of water and of spirit.” (3:3-5)
1. “I am the bread that came down out of the heaven.”
2. “Do we not know His father and mother? How can He say, I have come down out of the heaven?”
3. “The Father sent Me.” (6:41-44)
1. “I and the Father are one.”
2. “You, being a man, make yourself God!”
3. “Is it not having been written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?” (10:30-34)
You may be able to figure out where I am going with this. The same motif of misunderstanding that appears throughout the gospel of John is clearly present in John 8:56-58:
1. “Abraham, your father... saw [My day] and did rejoice.”
2. “You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?”
3. “Truly, truly, I say to you, I have been [the Messiah] before Abraham was born.”
Since we know from Hebrews 11:39 that Abraham did not literally see Jesus, but merely saw Him as a prophetic promise, Jesus’ first statement - that Abraham saw His day - must be a figurative statement. Thus, the Jews’ ridicule in v. 57 must be understood as the second step of the misunderstanding motif, in which the Jews interpret Jesus’ words literally and ridicule Him for it. However, if this is true, then v. 58 must be the third step of the motif, where the figurative meaning is explained. But how could this be, if (as trinitarians and Arians read this passage) it is saying that Jesus did literally exist before Abraham?
The answer is that Jesus was claiming a sort of pre-existence by saying that, “I have been [the Messiah] before Abraham was born”. But He was not saying that He physically, literally existed together with God before Abraham existed; rather, in line with the Jewish idea of notional pre-existence as described above, He was saying that He had existed as the Messiah in God’s foreknowledge prior to Abraham’s birth. See the following examples of Messianic “pre-existence” in ancient Jewish thought:
The name of Messiah was created before the world was created... The name of Messiah already existed before the creation of the sun and the rest of the world. (Pesachim 54a:8)
Six things preceded the creation of the world... the name of the Messiah [was] decided to be created. (Bereishit Rabbah 1:4)
[God] will reveal His Messiah whose name is spoken from the beginning (Targum on Zechariah 4:7)
And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Ancient of Days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of Spirits... And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for evermore. (1 Enoch 48:2-3, 6)
[Messiah was] foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you (1 Pet. 1:20 YLT)
This idea, that the Messiah existed in the foreknowledge of God before His birth, even appears in the Bible itself as shown in 1 Peter 1:20. Therefore, when Jesus claimed to have existed as the Messiah prior to Abraham, His audience - full of Pharisees who, presumably, were very familiar with the intertestamental literature - would have understood Him to be saying that he existed in God’s foreknowledge.
A paraphrase of what Jesus meant in this passage might be, “even before Abraham was, I have been, in God’s plan, the Messiah (and so when Abraham saw his promised seed, he was seeing Me)”. Rather than taking this passage to mean that Jesus literally existed before Abraham, we should understand it as His original audience would have. They (being familiar with the Jewish literature that speaks of Messiah having figuratively existed before the sun) would have known that He was speaking of His existence in God’s foreknowledge, not of a physical existence with God in heaven, causing them to try to stone Him for His Messianic claims [3].
“The glory that I had before the world was”
The final prooftext for the “pre-existence of Christ” in the gospel of John is found in John 17:5. Here is that passage in question:
“And now You, Father, glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory that I was having with You before the being of the world” [4]
Trinitarians and Arians see this verse as absolute proof that Jesus consciously pre-existed His birth in some form, and existed before the creation of the world. But is this really warranted by this verse, or is there another interpretation that doesn’t contradict the large body of evidence that Jesus did not pre-exist His birth?
As a matter of fact, there is significant contextual evidence that this statement in John 17:5 should be understood proleptically. Jesus is not referring to a glory that He literally had together with God before the creation of the world, but a glory that was predestined even before the world began, in line with the Jewish figure of speech of prolepsis described above. It is impossible that Jesus could have had any glory prior to His resurrection, because as noted in the first article of this series, the very reason that Jesus even has glory at the present time is because of His death and resurrection:
“Was it not behoving the Christ these things to suffer, and to enter into his glory?” (Lk. 24:26 YLT)
For because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. (Rom. 14:9 YLT)
[Jesus] humbled himself, having become obedient unto death (namely, death of a cross). Consequently, God also over-exalted him, and gifted him the name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow, of [those] in the heavens and [those] on the earth and [those] under the earth, and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, for a glory of Father God. (Php. 2:8-11)
Jesus — because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour [was] crowned (Heb. 2:9 YLT)
Paul writes that the very reason that Jesus died and rose again is that He might be Lord of the dead and the living. The obvious implication of this is that Jesus cannot have been the Lord of the dead and the living prior to His death and resurrection. The exact same thing is implied in the rest of the verses quoted above, which say that Christ’s glory is directly the result of His obedience unto death and subsequent resurrection. In accordance with this fact, John writes elsewhere in his gospel account that Jesus had not yet been glorified at the time of His earthly ministry (John 7:39), which precludes His having possessed glory at any time prior to His life on earth.
But if Jesus did not have any glory prior to His life on earth, as required by these passages, what could He have meant by “the glory that I was having with [the Father] before the being of the world”? The only possible conclusion that doesn’t contradict any other passage of scripture is that He meant this proleptically, referring to the glory that was predestined to Him before the world was created. In the same way that we were chosen and given grace before times of the ages (Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9), while we (obviously) did not yet consciously exist, and in the way that the Lamb has been slain since the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) though He did not die until the crucifixion, so also Jesus’ being given glory before the being of the world does not require His having consciously existed at that time.
Furthermore, Jesus’ prayer to the Father in John 17 is absolutely riddled with prolepsis, which provides even more contextual evidence that Jn. 17:5 is to be understood proleptically. In v. 4, Jesus talks about how He has accomplished His work on earth, even though this work was not completed until His crucifixion (Jn. 19:30). In vv. 11-12, He speaks as though He is no longer in the world, even though He would not ascend to the heaven until over forty days later. Later on, in vv. 22 and 24, Jesus speaks of “the glory which You have been giving me [5]“, even though the entire prayer is a request for God to give Him that glory. He also says in v. 22, “I have been giving them [disciples] the glory”, even though believers will not be glorified until the second coming of Christ (Col. 3:4).
Because of the massive amount of prolepsis in this passage, especially connected with the idea of “glory” and “glorifying”, there is no reason to interpret v. 5 as referring to a literal pre-existence in glory when other passages clearly contradict that idea. Instead, Jesus was speaking of the glory that He would receive upon His resurrection, which had been predestined to Him by God since even before the world was created.
Part 4: https://universalistheretic.blogspot.com/2022/05/the-pre-existence-of-christ-further.html
[2] Although trinitarians often claim otherwise, the historical evidence clearly proves that it was. When Jesus was on trial, the only charge brought against Him was His claim to be the Messiah (Matt. 26:63-64; Mk. 14:61-62; Lk. 22:67-70), which was considered enough to crucify Him. An interesting, albeit almost certainly untrue, historical tradition has it that the rabbi Bar Kokhba was killed for claiming to be the Messiah without being able to back up his claim (see this article).
[3] Although this interpretation may seem like a stretch to modern readers, that is only because we don’t have the benefit of living in the culture in which the Bible was written. To us, saying that somebody “existed before any work of God” would also seem to be a blatant claim to pre-existence, and yet this is exactly what was written in the Prayer of Joseph (1:2) about Abraham and Isaac, whom we know did not pre-exist their births. Pre-existence, in the ancient Jewish mindset, was all about predestination and foreknowledge, and had nothing to do with whether one actually existed consciously prior to one’s birth.
[4] Although this translation, “before the being of the world”, might seem awkward, it is the literal translation of the Greek and has the same essential meaning as the usual translation, “before the world existed”.
[5] Perfect tense, indicating a past ongoing action.
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